tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post8321155366394492944..comments2023-10-29T01:28:38.900-07:00Comments on Top Suspense Group: INSIDE TOP SUSPENSE: SEXDave Zeltsermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04007736514118297783noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-37177244543939693512012-08-21T18:30:17.621-07:002012-08-21T18:30:17.621-07:00Great topic! I am writing my first novel and am ha...Great topic! I am writing my first novel and am having to address these issues. Since my protagonist is a young woman, I will run it by my 20-year-old daughter and see if it flies. I had my husband read the first 100 pages and when I asked him about a scene I thought was sexy, he went back to one I hardly thought about. Men are different than women and different things turn them on. He will be a great source for info too as well as a willing participant in any scenes I need to play out. Hahaha! Susie Lindauhttp://susielindau.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-50492679251541763302011-07-09T15:24:41.967-07:002011-07-09T15:24:41.967-07:00Nothing like a little slim agile wickedness to bri...Nothing like a little slim agile wickedness to brighten your day.Craig Faustus Buckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10977748649878766205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-33742936773639286482011-07-09T07:16:32.762-07:002011-07-09T07:16:32.762-07:00Lee:
I don't remember the scenes in the Matt ...Lee:<br /><br />I don't remember the scenes in the Matt Helm novels as being quite like you describe, and I'm too lazy to go look up some of them, but I understand what you mean. <br /><br />Then there's another extreme of unintended comedy when a writer slathers it on with a trowel, as demonstrated in the following passage from NO CHANCE IN HELL by Nick Quarry (a pseudonym of Marvin H. Albert):<br /><br /> "...There was a roaring and pounding of blood in my ears, a hot liquid urgency coursing all through me...I pulled her closer in a rising madness and she was all coiled, supple strength sheathed in springy softness by turns provoking, refusing, demanding, retracting, assaulting...And then her teeth were sinking into my shoulder, stifling her gasping cries of pain and delight, and a furious whirlwind of savage sensation swept me and I was attacking her slim agile wickedness in a mounting, driving frenzy...."Barry Erganghttp://writetrack.yolasite.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-66840414967632920782011-07-08T06:38:09.719-07:002011-07-08T06:38:09.719-07:00I was just re-reading the posts and comments, and ...I was just re-reading the posts and comments, and something Naomi said (finally) resonated with me. I think I like passion more than sex. I love to read about characters who are obsessed with another characte: their physical attributes, character traits, etc. In many ways, reading an account from their POV about another character is sexier than them actually having sex with that character.Libby Hellmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14357982182362948869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-7397746058368546212011-07-07T21:15:33.567-07:002011-07-07T21:15:33.567-07:00Barry,
I used to hate the sex scenes in Donald Ham...Barry,<br />I used to hate the sex scenes in Donald Hamilton's Matt Helm novels. They always went something like this. <br /><br /><i>Matt looked at her. Sharon looked at him. And they tumbled into the bed, yielding to an urgency that could not be denied.<br /><br />###<br /><br />The next morning, over the smell of sizzling bacon, Matt quizzed Sharon on what she knew about the Embassy attack in Jakarta.</i><br /><br />I made the example up, but you get the idea. It became unintentionally funny.<br /><br />LeeLee Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13442268370192897461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-86700406121117110792011-07-07T14:30:26.908-07:002011-07-07T14:30:26.908-07:00Though I was a normal horny adolescent (albeit on...Though I was a normal horny adolescent (albeit one who wrote fiction and thus maybe not so normal, after all), I found that too many sex scenes in the novels I read fifty years ago were all of a piece (no pun intended--yeah, right!)--i.e., possessed of a lexical sameness and mechanical predictability that ultimately rendered them unexciting. This was even truer in some of the hard- and soft-core porn novels friends of mine were into but which I could never get through because they bored rather than stimulated me.<br /><br />Then there's the exception: Lawrence Block's comic epistolary sex novel RONALD RABBIT IS A DIRTY OLD MAN, a used copy of which I first discovered and read in the early Eighties. I worked for a local indie bookstore at the time, and found it was still listed in BOOKS IN PRINT. But when I called the publisher to order copies for the store to sell, I learned they had none in stock and had no immediate plans to reprint it. It was reissued in 2000 by Subterranean Press. If you haven't read it, find a copy and do so. You'll grin your way through it at the very least, and probably more than once laugh out loud.<br /><br />Getting back to the thrust (no pun intended--yeah, right!) of this topic, I read an interview years ago with Donald Hamilton, creator of Matt Helm, in which he pointed out that readers know what happens in the bedroom. It's the lead-up to and the aftermath of that event that are more interesting. I agree, but with one reservation. If something out of the ordinary (read "kinky") occurs that defines or affects a character, it might need to be shown, or at the very least mentioned after the fact. In any case, Hamilton adhered to his rule in the Helm novels. The one thing all the books had in common? No matter how tenuous, even antagonistic, her relationship with Helm might be to start with, every woman called him "darling" after they coupled.Barry Erganghttp://writetrack.yolasite.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-56529870671879829232011-07-07T11:37:44.383-07:002011-07-07T11:37:44.383-07:00When I am disappointed with sex--in novels, that i...When I am disappointed with sex--in novels, that is--it is generally because the writer didn't strike the right balance for me. I don't normally want a step by step instructional manual as to who put what where, but I also don't want to jump from the characters kissing to after they're finished the deed. I'm difficult to please when it comes to sex--in novels, that is--but as long as I believe the characters would do what they are doing in bed (or on the floor on kitchen table or wherever), and the tone and vocabulary is in keeping with the character and the rest of the book, I usually end up fulfilled.<br /><br />Holli CastilloHolli Castillohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15976235735822063166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-68797311070042971162011-07-07T07:00:54.493-07:002011-07-07T07:00:54.493-07:00James Salter still writes the best sex scenes in A...James Salter still writes the best sex scenes in American literature. Mostly because of his indirectness.NPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15394265149375724361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-13023999706506319812011-07-07T03:12:02.901-07:002011-07-07T03:12:02.901-07:00It's not sex they say that about, it's Ind...<i>It's not sex they say that about, it's Indian food.</i><br /><br />When you think about it, scenes with sex and scenes with eating can go badly in very similar ways - I've winced and fallen out of the story many a time when the author's had a character taking a forkful of this, chewing on that, and it makes me realise that a string of physical acts do not a narrative make, and it's only action filtered through a character's perception that brings story to life.Stephen Gallagherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05280419153030490653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-68094353085177136442011-07-06T21:30:17.311-07:002011-07-06T21:30:17.311-07:00LOL!LOL!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-47251826456584166092011-07-06T18:10:38.086-07:002011-07-06T18:10:38.086-07:00You know what they say about sex.
"When it&...You know what they say about sex. <br /><br />"When it's good, well, its amazing, it's wonderful, it's the greatest thing in the world. And when it's not so good, well, even then it's not so bad."<br /><br />Oh, hell. I'm sorry, scratch all that. It's not sex they say that about, it's Indian food.<br /><br />Sorry.Lawrence Blockhttp://tinyurl.com/5uac63fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-2905796982608576662011-07-06T17:14:05.283-07:002011-07-06T17:14:05.283-07:00Strike that... I don't mean bad sex... I mean ...Strike that... I don't mean bad sex... I mean sex that isn't perfect, where the two participants don't necessarily come together...or do everything right for one another...or where hard-ons don't stay hard for hours on end..and yet everything still turns out happily for the lovers.<br /><br />LeeLee Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13442268370192897461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-10999984731062952572011-07-06T17:11:36.564-07:002011-07-06T17:11:36.564-07:00Libby,
I honestly believe bad sex is easier to wr...Libby,<br /><br />I honestly believe bad sex is easier to write than fantastic sex because it's based more on character, and dare I say reality, than the porn movie fantasy sex in most thrillers today.<br /><br />LeeLee Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13442268370192897461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-51069086705871890952011-07-06T17:10:02.177-07:002011-07-06T17:10:02.177-07:00Christa,
I couldn't agree more. I am so tired...Christa,<br /><br />I couldn't agree more. I am so tired of sex scenes in thrillers where the lovers are confident and fantastic, erections last forever, the women are multi-orgasmic, and everyone's climaxes part the heavens. Nobody leaves the scorched bed dissatisfied. Far, far from it. It was one of the myths I was trying to puncture with the sex scenes in WATCH ME DIE. My protagonist, Harvey Mapes, is anything but a perfect lover. In fact, most of the time, he comes way too soon and finds most aspects of sex, besides his own desire for lots of it, confusing and fraught with potential disappointment, humiliation and recrimination. It was so much easier, and so much more fun, to write than the cliched, high-performance, sex that is the norm in the mysteries and thrillers that I read.<br /><br />LeeLee Goldberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13442268370192897461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-62051780297916439912011-07-06T14:57:26.249-07:002011-07-06T14:57:26.249-07:00Whoops, "prestidigitation"Whoops, "prestidigitation"Craig Faustus Buckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10977748649878766205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-15287108875372809542011-07-06T13:51:27.376-07:002011-07-06T13:51:27.376-07:00Lots of excellent thoughts. I agree with Lee that...Lots of excellent thoughts. I agree with Lee that sex should provide insight into characters and relationships. It's like presidigitation, the sex misdirects the reader while you sneak your character exposition out of your sleeve.<br /><br />I try to be explicit without being too graphic when I write about sex, but I can be downright pornographic when they talk about it, assuming the dialogue is in character. Here's an example. The main character is in a restaurant men's room when his friend-with-benefits, a female police lieutenant, walks in:<br /><br /> I put my foot on the sink to tie my shoe and hear the door close behind me. I look in the mirror and see Gloria locking the deadbolt. Her skin looks almost green but I can't tell if it's the CFL lighting or the fact that she's already pickled. <br /><br /> "Hey shailor." Drunk as a Russian poet. Whatever fragrance she's wearing clashes with the saccharine urinal-cake smell that infuses the air. <br /><br /> "Ladies' room is down the hall, Gloria."<br /><br /> "But you're not." She twists me around, jamming my back against the wall-mounted air drier, mashing her body against mine.<br /><br /> "This isn't the time or the place." <br /><br /> She kisses me hard. Despite my discomfort, the risk of being caught excites me. She reaches down and feels my ambivalence through my pants. <br /><br />"I guess your brain hasn't notified your dick."Craig Faustus Buckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10977748649878766205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-68365994074311677222011-07-06T11:03:30.266-07:002011-07-06T11:03:30.266-07:00Christa, I love the idea of writing bad sex. I'...Christa, I love the idea of writing bad sex. I'm just afraid I'd write it badly too...Libby Hellmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14357982182362948869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-1253429776391864522011-07-06T09:39:50.082-07:002011-07-06T09:39:50.082-07:00Like Lee and my other esteemed colleagues, there h...Like Lee and my other esteemed colleagues, there has to be a reason for the sex, usually to show the reveal the characters but also to show the characters state of mind. And as Christa mentioned, the sex isn't always good. In my books, when the sex is good, it's usually off screen. In Fast Lane, the sex is miserable, joyless and with a psychotic edge to it to reflect what's going on with my psycho noir protagonist, Johnny Lane, who's basically a miserable, joyless character bordering on the edge of a psychotic breakdown. In Pariah, the sex is used to show what's going on with my South Boston mobster out of prison, Kyle Nevin. When he first meets up with Nola, he's just out of prison, and feeling mostly impotent about his status and power in the city, and so no matter what Nola tries she's unable to get a rise from him. Later, after Kyle pulls off a violent street crime, the sex between him and Nola in a clothing store's fitting room is dangerous, violent, and show's that Kyle is is fully back o his carnivorous self. At one point, Kyle describes a scene with two beautiful women that plays out like a penthouse letter fantasy, and then admits the truth in this note to his editor (Pariah is written as a work in progress by Kyle):<br /><br />To Ed.: I swear to God, this is the only place in the book where I’m taking “artistic license”. I figure if I can come clean and admit that I left that hot Hispanic stripper working away on nothing more than a limp piece of rigatoni, than I can embellish things a little here so I don’t come across like a total schmuck. Up to the point where that crazy fuck Sheila showed us how she was clean as a whistle between the legs, everything happened exactly as I said. After that, though, things went a little different. Mixing the coke and that pill was a bad idea. Doing those last lines left me feeling like my heart was being ripped apart. Fuck, it was embarrassing, both girls screaming like I was dying, and then the EMT workers carting me away to Boston City Hospital with my dick as hard as a piece of oak and pointing straight to the moon. It turned out it was nothing serious and after a day’s observation they let me go. Only a handful of people know about this—Nola, her blonde friend, the EMT workers, and a few people at Boston City. So far none of them have said word one about it, and I don’t think they’re going to. Still, after the shitstorm that hit me smack in the face with my first book, I don’t want to see this one crucified over one small exaggeration. If you think there’s a chance of this book being given the “James Frey” treatment because of the above, then take it out. But I don’t want what really happened to be mentioned. – K. N.<br /><br />What it comes down to is, just as with violence, plot and character, if there's no underlying purpose for a sex scene, it's gratuitous, and needs to be removed.Dave Zeltsermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04007736514118297783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-87037096097259493532011-07-06T08:00:41.465-07:002011-07-06T08:00:41.465-07:00I love this topic, too. Lots of great advice from ...I love this topic, too. Lots of great advice from some great writers. One thing I'd like to add is that sex in fiction doesn't always have to be "good." Think about it, how many times have you had sex in your life and how many times has it been earth-moving, mind-blowing, rock-video awesome? I love reading sex scenes that are awkward, imperfect, unfulfilling, or even downright ugly. So many thriller writers slave over their action scenes, trying to make it all gritty and realistic and then the characters jump in bed and everything turns miraculously porno-perfect. Remember, even good sex isn't always perfect.Christa Fausthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00828119312502342214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-2787826503501963042011-07-06T04:45:41.554-07:002011-07-06T04:45:41.554-07:00Thanks, Suzanne. Glad you weighed in... I mean wit...Thanks, Suzanne. Glad you weighed in... I mean with a title like "Dating My Vibrator" you didn't really have much choice...:)Libby Hellmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14357982182362948869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-83568444519426353742011-07-05T20:50:28.205-07:002011-07-05T20:50:28.205-07:00I love this topic. Suspense and sex are intertwine...I love this topic. Suspense and sex are intertwined and integral to the stories I write. My novel, Vestal Virgin, is driven by the sexual appetites of all the main characters. <br /><br />I agree with Lee, sex for the sake of sex doesn't interest me. I'm interested in what sex reveals about the characters, and it needs to drive the story forward. I really enjoyed Lee's excerpt, and I prefer suggestive scenes to explicit gymnastics.Suzanne Tyrpakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06235961429684482177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-86719099758385993842011-07-05T16:30:43.038-07:002011-07-05T16:30:43.038-07:00To me the mechanics of any sexual encounter tend t...To me the mechanics of any sexual encounter tend to be of far less interest than the new direction in which it propels those involved. It's a pivotal point in any relationship. The fact that it happens is of more importance than <i>what</i> happens.<br /><br />I once met a writer who reckoned that he wouldn't be able to write a sex scene until his parents died.Stephen Gallagherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05280419153030490653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-44287848477818101822011-07-05T15:35:14.961-07:002011-07-05T15:35:14.961-07:00Ah, so true. And she gave birth to a provider of h...Ah, so true. And she gave birth to a provider of hot blooded midcentury erotica as well. Doubtless sparked my youth enormously (cough)Harry Shannonhttp://www.harryshannon.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-50438902273894303362011-07-05T13:44:13.303-07:002011-07-05T13:44:13.303-07:00Your mother was a wise woman, Larry.Your mother was a wise woman, Larry.Libby Hellmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14357982182362948869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7589131949052086102.post-12333059962916536242011-07-05T13:13:11.519-07:002011-07-05T13:13:11.519-07:00Good topic, and one I'm going to blog about as...Good topic, and one I'm going to blog about as greater length sometime. I wrote [clears throat] Midcentury Erotica early on, and probably stayed too long at the fair; when I was done with it and moved on to Bernie Rhodenbarr and Matthew Scudder, I found both of those narrative voices remarkably reticent when it came to discussing sexual matters. Sex happened in the books—nothing weird about Matt and Bernie—but it generally happened off-stage, or between section breaks. Same with Keller.<br /><br />A couple of stand-alones (Random Walk, Small Town) were otherwise, and it seemed appropriate (to me, anyway) for Small Town to push the sexual envelope. (Where are they pushing the envelope, Mr. B? Oh, shut up.)<br /><br />And in the forthcoming GETTING OFF, where I hide behind a transparent pen name (Lawrence Block writing as Jill Emerson) all bets are off. So are the gloves, and hell, so are the condoms. My characters not only use the C word; one of them tends to chant it. And the things they do, and tell each other about. . .man, I never could pull that stuff in midcentury erotica.<br /><br />Some years ago, when she was several years younger than I am now, my mother told me there was one small thing to be said for growing old. "Every year," she said, "there are a few more things I just don't give a shit about."<br /><br />As in so many things, the woman got that one right.Lawrence Blockhttp://www.lawrenceblock.comnoreply@blogger.com